It's curious that nerds, who are generally very precise in matters of technology, are such painfully sloppy writers.
Like, say, this review.
I don't remember the username, but someone on here had an excellent signature for this: "Slashdot, where people know the difference between grep, zgrep, and ngrep, but not there, their, and they're."
I've explained how I think this works before, but got was moderated into oblivion. Hopefully this will light a spark to some of you...
When I type, I literally have an inner monologue going on of what I wish to type. A lot of people work this way. It is a means of pre-screening what you want to say so that it would actually make sense if talking directly to other people.
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
The same mental clog is what, I believe, to be the misuse of words like lose/loose. In quick mode, my brain is much more inclined to type "loose" for the sound "lewz", because most every other word that has a double-o makes the "ew" sounds. Deep in the grey matter, I know better, but when furiously typing away, such things slip.
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
This is where the amazing skill taught in school called "proofreading" kicks in. Before you click "Submit" you pause, re-read what you've written, think about it for a moment, and correct any mistakes. Conveniently, Slashdot even provides a "Preview" button to make this "proofreading" even easier:)
I think there is a good portion of people that do not consider a post on the internet to be worthy of proof reading. Any typo's or misspellings are insignificant enough that you can still read and understand the post.
I think there is a good portion of people that do not consider a post on the internet to be worthy of proof reading.
That's sad. I would imagine there's a pretty large intersection between those people and the ones that claim "language is a living construct, so I can break the rules whenever I want."
On the Internet, we don't have things like body language, voice inflection, or eye contact to help convey extra information. The words that you use become more important in those circumstances, not less.
I think the largest reason for it is that posting on the internet is done for entertainment. Because it is done for entertainment, it does not require the same level of professionalism as something, well professional.
The greengrocer's apostrophe is a tell-tale sign that you are probably one of those people you refer to.
Nerds (and most otherwise intelligent people, for that matter) usually give a lot of importance to language. Not bothering to express oneself correctly is something "typical people" would do. But not nerds, no. We know better.
Note: English is not my first language, so any grammar mistakes found in this post are the product of ignorance, not sloppiness.
By the way, do you have any source that supports the idea that nerds and most otherwise intelligent people give a lot of importance to language (Proper spelling & grammar specifically)
I don't see signatures. I don't remember if I set it up that way on purpose -I don't like sigs- or it was like that by default. Sorry if I lost the context because of that (btw, I still don't know what your sig says, I'll take a look at the settings later).
By the way, do you have any source that supports the idea that nerds and most otherwise intelligent people give a lot of importance to language (Proper spelling & grammar specifically)
Well, yes, the Jargon File should count as source, IMO. It says 'hackers' where we say 'nerds' or 'geeks', but in a broad sense, meaning approximately the same. I quote the section about the writing style of hackers:
Though it is considered gauche to publicly criticize posters for poor spelling or grammar, the network places a premium on literacy and clarity of expression. It may well be that future historians of literature will see in it a revival of the great tradition of personal letters as art.
A lot of nerds or geeks wrote C. We don't give damn about spaces, variable names, etc. Heck, i wrote several functions with name such as mbiasi() which is actually done by taking initial letter of every word in the string "my boss is a stupid idiot". When he ask, I just told him, that it just came to my mind. That made me think, that maybe the word 'fsck' and 'gimp' might not be as wierd as it sounds.
There's a caveat, though. If you proofread immediately after typing something, you're likely to miss something relative mundane (like "its" vs "it's"). If you're in a hurry, you'll just have to accept a few typos and grammar errors, and the derision that's sure to follow. If you have more time for thoughtful contemplation, you should hit the Preview button, then continue reading something else for a bit (or get a cup of coffee, whatever). When you come back, your brain should find it easier to read through
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
This is where the amazing skill taught in school called "proofreading" kicks in. Before you click "Submit" you pause, re-read what you've written, think about it for a moment, and correct any mistakes. Conveniently, Slashdot even provides a "Preview" button to make this "proofreading" even easier:)
I don't proofread, but my brain thinks in a grammatically correct manner. I think of concepts, not sounds, so I never have the confusion of typing the wrong 'their'.
However, that does not prevent typos. I actually saw the preview before posting this and I had written "things" instead of "thinks". Common letter combinations and all...
Personally as a non-native English speaker, I was always amused and interested by the common errors made by native English writers when they write too quickly.
The thing is, except for very rare cases, if you think too much faster than you can write, then what you are thinking tends not to be of higher quality that your spelling.
I wonder if the enormous overhead of natural languages impedes our thought.
I think better in pictures. A bit of an over generalisation, but I find that if I can draw a diagram of something I can understand it.
Probably a lot of geeks (I suppose I'm a borderline one) are like that. Think of all the flowcharts, swimlane diagrams, database entity relationships etc that we love. A lot of non geeks try to use words instead.
Exactly. In Lojban, you can create much more defined relationships between entities. We'll have some sort of binary after the Singularity, but it is interesting to me to study Lojban (parsable) in the meantime.
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
Yup I do this too. Mind what little code I write these days sucks too. Not that anyone gives a shit.
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
I have the same issue, except I would say that my brain moves faster than my hands, and I have not time or inclination to go back and fix spelling/grammar errors. It's just slashdot after all, once I submit I'm on to the next comment.
> When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there".
There goes someone who learned to read at an advanced age, like, say, in school. If you had learned these words from reading and looking them up in the dictionary, you would have acquired the proper pronunciation for each. "There" is pronounced "the-ere", "their" rhymes with "Jane Eyre", and "they're" is sounded out as "they are", but with the middle vowels shortened. Learn to speak, and you'll learn to spell.
There goes someone who learned to read at an advanced age, like, say, in school. If you had learned these words from reading and looking them up in the dictionary, you would have acquired the proper pronunciation for each. "There" is pronounced "the-ere", "their" rhymes with "Jane Eyre", and "they're" is sounded out as "they are", but with the middle vowels shortened. Learn to speak, and you'll learn to spell.
Only with certain accents. In most American accents (and a great many British and Indian ones) the words "their", "they're" and "there" sound exactly the same.
> Only with certain accents. In most American accents (and a great many British > and Indian ones) the words "their", "they're" and "there" sound exactly the same.
There is no such thing as an "accent". There is speaking proper English, and there is not speaking proper English, and while I do not claim to always do the former (English is my second language, after all), I at least recognize that there is one proper thing to strive for and am able to recognize it when I hear it. Likewise, I may occasional
Really [wikipedia.org]? That is astonishing news. I'll be sure to alert the English department at my local university that accents don't actually exist. Thanks for clearing that up.
There is speaking proper English, and there is not speaking proper English, and while I do not claim to always do the former (English is my second language, after all)...
As someone who admits English isn't their first language you seem awfully arrogant telling those of us who are native speakers how to pronounce our own language. There is no "proper" English. There are widely accepted grammar and pronunciation rules but virtually none are universal - hence we have accents, dialects, and an evolving languag
"Deep in the grey matter, I know better, but when furiously typing away, such things slip."
But that still boggles me. Do you make the same kind of "loose/lose" typos when you're writing program code? Do you type 'printf' instead of 'sprintf' because 'it sounds the same'?
You do, don't you? *You're* the reason the Internet is broken!
duh... we have error warning for c compiling. I don't see that facility in slashdot.
After all, nobody will confuse sprintf and printf because the human brain handles the first and last letter real good. If there's another function called printtf, a lot of people will get it wrong I think.
That's interesting. I've just recently begun to notice that I process language differently from the people I associate with- and by saying that I don't necessarily mean that my way is better.
Unlike you, my stream of consciousness is represented by fully-spelled words and fully articulated thoughts. Ideas are sorted out by their labels: If you tell me to think of an elephant, I will think of the word 'elephant' exactly as it appears in print. This has both benefits and drawbacks; I can write very well (espec
I guess that almost makes me Geek although my social skills are barely scraping the floor of acceptibility.
I personally like the original Geek Code because it recognized there are different "spins" on Geekhood who were yet a part of an amorphous brotherhood. Y'all have me cooked on the high powered technical stuff as my knowledge is very lateral and includes a fairly strong grasp of english.
It's curious that nerds, who are generally very precise in matters of technology, are such painfully sloppy writers.
Depends what kind of nerd you're talking about.
The thing is, to me, "nerd" is too general a term. It's like "consultant". It's relatively meaningless without an adjective.
Nerds are people of above average intelligence with an intense fascination, possibly to the point of obsession, with something. The "something" can vary. There are computer nerds, science nerds, Star Wars nerds, literary nerds, history nerds, even sports nerds. And, of course, most nerds are a combination of a number of these.
We computer n
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging
their prejudices."
-- William James
Nerds. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's curious that nerds, who are generally very precise in matters of technology, are such painfully sloppy writers.
Like, say, this review.
I don't remember the username, but someone on here had an excellent signature for this: "Slashdot, where people know the difference between grep, zgrep, and ngrep, but not there, their, and they're."
--saint
Re:Nerds. (Score:5, Interesting)
When I type, I literally have an inner monologue going on of what I wish to type. A lot of people work this way. It is a means of pre-screening what you want to say so that it would actually make sense if talking directly to other people.
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
The same mental clog is what, I believe, to be the misuse of words like lose/loose. In quick mode, my brain is much more inclined to type "loose" for the sound "lewz", because most every other word that has a double-o makes the "ew" sounds. Deep in the grey matter, I know better, but when furiously typing away, such things slip.
Re:Nerds. (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
This is where the amazing skill taught in school called "proofreading" kicks in. Before you click "Submit" you pause, re-read what you've written, think about it for a moment, and correct any mistakes. Conveniently, Slashdot even provides a "Preview" button to make this "proofreading" even easier :)
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I think there is a good portion of people that do not consider a post on the internet to be worthy of proof reading.
That's sad. I would imagine there's a pretty large intersection between those people and the ones that claim "language is a living construct, so I can break the rules whenever I want."
On the Internet, we don't have things like body language, voice inflection, or eye contact to help convey extra information. The words that you use become more important in those circumstances, not less.
--saint
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The greengrocer's apostrophe is a tell-tale sign that you are probably one of those people you refer to.
Nerds (and most otherwise intelligent people, for that matter) usually give a lot of importance to language. Not bothering to express oneself correctly is something "typical people" would do. But not nerds, no. We know better.
Note: English is not my first language, so any grammar mistakes found in this post are the product of ignorance, not sloppiness.
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By the way, do you have any source that supports the idea that nerds and most otherwise intelligent people give a lot of importance to language (Proper spelling & grammar specifically)
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I assumed my signature would be the first clue.
I don't see signatures. I don't remember if I set it up that way on purpose -I don't like sigs- or it was like that by default. Sorry if I lost the context because of that (btw, I still don't know what your sig says, I'll take a look at the settings later).
By the way, do you have any source that supports the idea that nerds and most otherwise intelligent people give a lot of importance to language (Proper spelling & grammar specifically)
Well, yes, the Jargon File should count as source, IMO. It says 'hackers' where we say 'nerds' or 'geeks', but in a broad sense, meaning approximately the same. I quote the section about the writing style of hackers:
Though it is considered gauche to publicly criticize posters for poor spelling or grammar, the network places a premium on literacy and clarity of expression. It may well be that future historians of literature will see in it a revival of the great tradition of personal letters as art.
However, I have no clear source for the
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There's a caveat, though. If you proofread immediately after typing something, you're likely to miss something relative mundane (like "its" vs "it's"). If you're in a hurry, you'll just have to accept a few typos and grammar errors, and the derision that's sure to follow. If you have more time for thoughtful contemplation, you should hit the Preview button, then continue reading something else for a bit (or get a cup of coffee, whatever). When you come back, your brain should find it easier to read through
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Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
This is where the amazing skill taught in school called "proofreading" kicks in. Before you click "Submit" you pause, re-read what you've written, think about it for a moment, and correct any mistakes. Conveniently, Slashdot even provides a "Preview" button to make this "proofreading" even easier :)
I don't proofread, but my brain thinks in a grammatically correct manner. I think of concepts, not sounds, so I never have the confusion of typing the wrong 'their'.
However, that does not prevent typos. I actually saw the preview before posting this and I had written "things" instead of "thinks". Common letter combinations and all...
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> Slashdot even provides a "Preview" button to make this "proofreading" even easier :)
Yeah but the "Preview" button in /. is akin to the "Next" button in Windows.
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I logged in for this. Have you heard of Lojban? I wonder if the enormous overhead of natural languages impedes our thought.
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I think better in pictures. A bit of an over generalisation, but I find that if I can draw a diagram of something I can understand it.
Probably a lot of geeks (I suppose I'm a borderline one) are like that. Think of all the flowcharts, swimlane diagrams, database entity relationships etc that we love. A lot of non geeks try to use words instead.
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Exactly. In Lojban, you can create much more defined relationships between entities. We'll have some sort of binary after the Singularity, but it is interesting to me to study Lojban (parsable) in the meantime.
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Yes, your trying to outline a very precise concept in detail. Or trying to express something deep enough where words don't capture it that well.
This, though, is Slashdot.
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Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
Yup I do this too. Mind what little code I write these days sucks too. Not that anyone gives a shit.
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My alternative theory: you aren't as smart as you think you are.
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Also, my hands move faster than I can think sometimes. When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there". Especially in a hurry or under stress, my brain doesn't say "WHOA there buddy. That sound can be spelled more than one way depending on the context".
I have the same issue, except I would say that my brain moves faster than my hands, and I have not time or inclination to go back and fix spelling/grammar errors. It's just slashdot after all, once I submit I'm on to the next comment.
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Turn in your nerd card... (Score:2)
> When words like "there/their/they're" come along, my brain just says "there".
There goes someone who learned to read at an advanced age, like, say, in school. If you had learned these words from reading and looking them up in the dictionary, you would have acquired the proper pronunciation for each. "There" is pronounced "the-ere", "their" rhymes with "Jane Eyre", and "they're" is sounded out as "they are", but with the middle vowels shortened. Learn to speak, and you'll learn to spell.
> In quick mod
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There goes someone who learned to read at an advanced age, like, say, in school. If you had learned these words from reading and looking them up in the dictionary, you would have acquired the proper pronunciation for each. "There" is pronounced "the-ere", "their" rhymes with "Jane Eyre", and "they're" is sounded out as "they are", but with the middle vowels shortened. Learn to speak, and you'll learn to spell.
Only with certain accents. In most American accents (and a great many British and Indian ones) the words "their", "they're" and "there" sound exactly the same.
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> Only with certain accents. In most American accents (and a great many British
> and Indian ones) the words "their", "they're" and "there" sound exactly the same.
There is no such thing as an "accent". There is speaking proper English, and there is not speaking proper English, and while I do not claim to always do the former (English is my second language, after all), I at least recognize that there is one proper thing to strive for and am able to recognize it when I hear it. Likewise, I may occasional
There, their & they're (Score:2)
There is no such thing as an "accent".
Really [wikipedia.org]? That is astonishing news. I'll be sure to alert the English department at my local university that accents don't actually exist. Thanks for clearing that up.
There is speaking proper English, and there is not speaking proper English, and while I do not claim to always do the former (English is my second language, after all)...
As someone who admits English isn't their first language you seem awfully arrogant telling those of us who are native speakers how to pronounce our own language. There is no "proper" English. There are widely accepted grammar and pronunciation rules but virtually none are universal - hence we have accents, dialects, and an evolving languag
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"Deep in the grey matter, I know better, but when furiously typing away, such things slip."
But that still boggles me. Do you make the same kind of "loose/lose" typos when you're writing program code? Do you type 'printf' instead of 'sprintf' because 'it sounds the same'?
You do, don't you? *You're* the reason the Internet is broken!
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After all, nobody will confuse sprintf and printf because the human brain handles the first and last letter real good. If there's another function called printtf, a lot of people will get it wrong I think.
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Then let's hope you're a slow programmer :-)
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That's interesting. I've just recently begun to notice that I process language differently from the people I associate with- and by saying that I don't necessarily mean that my way is better.
Unlike you, my stream of consciousness is represented by fully-spelled words and fully articulated thoughts. Ideas are sorted out by their labels: If you tell me to think of an elephant, I will think of the word 'elephant' exactly as it appears in print. This has both benefits and drawbacks; I can write very well (espec
Re:Nerds, Geeks, & Writing (Score:2)
I guess that almost makes me Geek although my social skills are barely scraping the floor of acceptibility.
I personally like the original Geek Code because it recognized there are different "spins" on Geekhood who were yet a part of an amorphous brotherhood. Y'all have me cooked on the high powered technical stuff as my knowledge is very lateral and includes a fairly strong grasp of english.
Re: "Know X but can't do "Y" (Score:2)
I'm nearly perfect about contractions, but I mangle singular/plural in "what-if" scenarios.
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egrep -i '(there|their|they're)'
There. Problem solved!
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It's curious that nerds, who are generally very precise in matters of technology, are such painfully sloppy writers.
Depends what kind of nerd you're talking about.
The thing is, to me, "nerd" is too general a term. It's like "consultant". It's relatively meaningless without an adjective.
Nerds are people of above average intelligence with an intense fascination, possibly to the point of obsession, with something. The "something" can vary. There are computer nerds, science nerds, Star Wars nerds, literary nerds, history nerds, even sports nerds. And, of course, most nerds are a combination of a number of these.
We computer n